Conductor, we have a problem! Conductor!
If you haven’t heard that saying while listening to rap music, then you need to diversify your listening habits — because Kansas City’s Conductor Williams has quickly become one of the latest underground acts to crossover into the mainstream, as rap music continues to fight for its soul the more it dominates the charts. He’s been at this beatmaking thing since the mid 2000s, when he worked with New York-based rappers like Outasight and Fresh Daily around 2008. However, Williams didn’t really begin to find his groove until he decided to reinvent himself in 2016 after falling on hard times. “It was just a moment where everything changed,” he said. “So, maybe I needed to change too.”
Fast forward a couple years and Griselda Records founder Westside Gunn is in his Instagram DMs asking him to take a video down about a beat he made because he wanted to use it for his upcoming album Pray for Paris which then began his swift ascension into becoming one of the most in-demand producers in the game today. He’s made beats for the likes of Drake, J. Cole, and Joey Bada$$, who have all reached out to him when they feel like they want to rap a certain way and reach a certain audience. And while they haven’t worked together yet directly, Tyler, the Creator helped him win a Grammy when he used one of his beats on his song “Sir Baudelaire.”
Conductor is now planning on producing full-length projects with guys like Rome Streetz, just as he did with the impressive Boldy James record Across the Tracks and wants to put out more instrumental tapes. We caught up with Williams and talked about a wide array of topics, ranging from how he got his start, his process, and the moment when he started to climb out of the shadows of the underground, among other things.
Check out our talk below.
You smoke a lot of cigars. What’s your favorite brand?
This is a Joya de [Nicaragu.] This is a classic joint. I suppose the story goes that President Nixon made these the office favorite during this term, or something like that. But this is just a staple, and more than anything, it’s just a moment for me to stay still. If not, I’d be trying to do all kind of s–t but once I light one up, I got 40 minutes. So, it’s kind of meditative and enjoyable in that way.
What were you doing before you started producing, like as a day job?
I worked for a railway and my father did it too, and my uncle. I did that, but I went to university too, and I got out of university and then got a job with the old man doing that.
Were you alway interested in production?
Yeah, I was making beats in college and just fascinated with the process in college. Before college, I just loved music, you know, I’m saying playing little shows and colleges and stuff like that, house parties. But the love for actually making the instrumentals day come until maybe my last year of college was when I was like I’m gonna start cooking and see how good I can get. And I did that locally. And I did it to a place where I kind of like, I wouldn’t say I had outgrown Kansas City hip-hop, but I got to a place where I kind of worked with everyone, and it was kind of boring, and I was like, working a full time job, so I decided to attack the Internet. And that was actually the best gift, was me deciding to use the internet and meet other people around the world.
I started with the beats in like 2008. There’s a cat from out here — his name was Outasight at the time — and him and I linked on Myspace. Around 2008 is when I felt like I was good enough to start sharing music with people outside of my city and then by 2016 is when I decided to stop working with everybody and only focus on myself. I wanted that instant gratification of making a beat and seeing what everybody says about it, so I started posting instrumentals on Instagram. So, selfishly I wanted to know how good and entertaining my beats can be without having a rapper on them. Then I learned Adobe Premiere, and just kind of started hustling on how to present myself differently.
In your Amoeba record store “What’s in My Bag” video you had a J Dilla Donuts vinyl, and mentioned how much it influenced your production style. Were you listening to a lot of Dilla, Madlib, and DOOM beat tapes at the time?
Yeah, a lot of that. Pete Rock, too. And I honestly think Dilla was about to take it to a place where it was about to turn into jazz records, like instrumental beat tapes were about to be jazz records. He just didn’t get a chance to finish his ideas. But I think the idea that he started is like, “Yo, beats and samples can be told into stories in that way.”
You mentioned that you decided to reinvent yourself around 2016 and a couple years later you pop up on some Griselda records. Talk about that relationship a bit.
Ironically, the thing about Griselda that I haven’t been able to articulate yet because I haven’t had a chance to is that they were just outsiders. West and those guys kind of viewed themselves as outsiders, coming from Buffalo, and I was in Kansas City feeling the same way. And, you know, through the stars and through God, we all kind of met, so I didn’t never have to change my s—t. They really appreciated that. Westside Gunn really appreciated me being me. It just so happened that we were in the same mindframe.
How did you guys link up?
Instagram.
Did you hit him up?
The blessing of my career has been that everybody hit me directly — like, there hasn’t been a time where someone tried to go through a manager or an A&R yet. We’re getting to that place now, but all of the records that you’ve heard, they DM’d me. So, there’s something interesting about isolation and a one track mind, a one track system that I created where it’s like, “Yo, you got to go to that guy to get that thing.” And if you don’t go to that guy and get it, then you won’t get it. That’s kind of been the allure of things, you know I’m saying?
But West just seen me post a video the of the “Euro Step” beat I did, which was the first record he chose on Pray for Paris. I posted the beat video of me making it with cartoon projections behind me, and he hit me on a DM and was like, “Yo, take that down. Take that down. I need that. I need that send that.” And he was in Paris with Virgil, and I want to say Mike Dean. It was a bunch of people that were there. That’s kind of how that all started.
You’re very proficient with your vlogs.
That was the thing. I would make beats all week and then on the weekends I would work on videos for the next week.
So, you already had a strategy.
I don’t know if you have children, but when you have that responsibility and your dream or your passion is for real, you gotta figure it out. It’s not a matter of like, “I can’t make beats this weekend.” That was never the case, it was always, “How am I going to make beats this weekend?” You gotta figure it out. More than anything, persistence was the key there.
Your vlogging got you in a little bit of trouble, or that’s the rumor. You posted the Drake “Fighting Irish” freestyle and had to take it down.
That’s my brother. It was never “trouble.” It’s wasn’t a situation of like, “Yo, why the f—k you do that? Take it down right now.” It was just like, “Yo, Conductor. I know we were gonna do that, but not right now.” It was all good and it wasn’t a big deal. And eventually we’ll get to that. It was just like a miscommunication on both sides. And it’s like, “Yo, Conductor, can you take that down?” And it’s like, “Yeah, sure, I can take that down.”
You’re giving people advice on your vlogs. Some of them almost feels like a diary.
It is like a diary to a certain degree, but with the YouTube specifically. I wanted it to be what I wanted from somebody else, like what I wanted from the RZA or some other god-tier producer. Like, what would the villain do? What would DOOM do?
And you mentioned that he’s your favorite rapper.
I would say DOOM, West, and Evidence are my favorites. My top MCs are super strange for my taste.
What is it about Gunn’s style that you like?
It’s the character that he is. It’s how the music makes you feel. It’s his confidence. The way he loves himself is how we should all love ourselves. And a lot of us feel that way, but we don’t got the guts to say it. So, when you listen to a Westside Gunn record and he’s saying, “I’m the flyest ever,” and you’re rapping that, then it’s like that loop of you saying that out loud, you know? I tell West all the time, “You can rap, bro.” I think he is as nice as the other two. For the life of him, he’ll be like, “Nah, I don’t even rap. I’m a fashion n—a.”
Your beats reminded me of Dilla, DOOM and Madlib when I first heard them. You’re from that school of thought. The loops, the cartoon sounds.
Ultimately, those guys inspire me a lot. More than anything, bro, it’s just trying to find a way to tell a story through the instrumental, more than emulating the style, and a lot of it is necessity too. I don’t like computers like that. I don’t like synthetic sounding music. But the studies, though, the studies is all Dilla, you know, and I don’t know how I got spit out in the universe of like DOOM and Madlib, but the studies are completely all Dilla.
I think the results of the studies is something like “8am in Charlotte.” That record is all of the years of studying the legend and trying to not be like him. There’s times where I’m cutting a sample and I gotta turn the machine off, because it’s going Dilla World — because I’ve studied it so much.
You’ve said that you used to make five-to-10 beats a day. Has that process changed now?
I’ll never master the machines, but I’m at a place where I know how to get what I want. Now that I’ve got there, it’s about why am I doing what I’m doing and if it’s making sense. The part of the process that hasn’t changed is once it’s in the machine and to tape? I’m not an edit guy. I’m not listening to it constantly and going back to change the kicks. That s—t is cooked.
I don’t know if you ran into this, but I feel like at least for major label releases, even someone like Drake, right? Maybe you’ll come with something to the table, and then like, Boi-1da or somebody else will come, and they’ll add there bells and whistles to it.
The gift of this whole s— is a gentleman in Missouri making the records that he makes with the feeling that he gets. They want that. When they come to me, they’re like do whatever you do. On the Cole record “7 Minute Drill” there’s a baseline in there, it’s like a sine wave base, or an 808 — maybe elongated one — and Cole was so kind and almost halfway anxious about asking me if he can add it. He hit me a couple times that day that he was gonna add that little bass in there, and it was needed.
I want the best piece of art imaginable for the fan when they hear the track. It’s death of ego at all times, unless you’re trying to change my whole s–t. If you want to come in and pitch up the sample and put extra drums, then it’s not what I do. So maybe you should try, you know, by yourself, but it’s death of ego every time I touch down. And that’s the source of what I create out of and I think a lot of artists get that about me, and that’s what they respect most.
How did you feel about the drama surrounding that song? The Alchemist talked about “Meet the Grahams” and he said that he can’t control what rappers say on his beats.
And Al told me the same thing. You can’t control it. My job is to service the artist as best as I can. For me, being a man controlled by God, things that are blasphemous always alert me. Like n—as on some devil worshiping type s–t. You know what I’m saying? “God ain’t real, n—as out there praying is suckas.” I’m like, “Yo, chill out” [Laughs.] I’m one of those, one of those people. Other than that, it’s entertainment, and the artists that work with me come to me for the art.
So, you didn’t feel a way that he decided to delete it.
No, because he communicated.
So, Joey Bada$$, J. Cole and Drake all reached out to you?
Everybody reached out. You know what’s funny? There are fans that say I don’t do any music with the West Coast, but that music is coming, bro. The records with the Jay Worthys and the Larry Junes and the Ab-Souls are coming. N—as are reaching out, you just gotta wait.
You know what it is, too? I think it’s the stan stuff on social media. You made a beat for Drake, so you’re not allowed to make a beat for Kendrick.
You know what I’m saying? Why not? That’s that weirdo s–t. It doesn’t make any sense. I’m doing my job. At the end of the day, it’s rap at its highest level, and I’m just thankful to be a part of being of any of it.
What’s the difference in approach when you’re working with different rappers? What’s your process like?
This is pretty important because it’s maybe ethos at this point, no matter who the artist is — and Drake kind of ruined it for everybody in the best way — because a man of his stature and his schedule and his life still had the time to communicate with me about what he was feeling, what type of records he was listening to, where he was at with the pen, and that’s the beginning of the process with everybody.
Rarely is it getting a beat off the shelf. Generally, they pick off the beat tape and then we’re having more conversations about what’s happening. This is nothing more than a movie director or a movie producer. N—as don’t just show up to Tarantino and they want him to do a movie for them and they don’t talk about it.
So, the beat that they pick off the tape initially isn’t necessarily the one that they rap over?
With Drake, Joey and Cole, they pick off the beat tape and then they reference other songs in history, whether that be hip-hop or jazz. So, now I’m creating in their world. It’s a commutative thing, and that’s why them records feel like that. That’s why I can’t make another “8am” for Joey, because of the conversation and the energy that went into me building with Drake in that room.
So, you prefer a very collaborative process instead just handling things over email?
I want to know what the artist is thinking. A lot of folks be like, “Yo, I came to you because I’m trying to rap.”
You’ve become the go-to guy for the mainstream cats when they wanna get on some real rap sh—.
Yup. They be like, “I got some s–t I’m trying to talk about. I’m trying to get people to feel that I’m in a place,” and then they come to me.
Can you elaborate a little bit more on how different your relationship is with Gunn compared to other people?
I feel like if something terrible happened to me, Gunn would provide for my family. I’ll never be broke and I’ll never be down bad. He’ll pay for my kids to go to college if I’m not able to. That’s the difference between my relationship with him and everybody else.
I wanted to get into when you decided to rebrand yourself. Were you frustrated when you decided to do that?
It was a moment of internal reform. My granny had died. I went through a bad relationship. I was living in my car a little bit and couch hopping. I really didn’t have no money like that. I got laid off at the job. It was just a moment where everything changed, so maybe I needed to change too. And then there’s a record that I just re-released that I put out in 2018 called Listen to Your Body, Talk to Plants, Ignore People. I started building beats for that in 2016 because I changed my life.
I started like this hybrid vegan thing which was probably more vegetarian looking back at it. I really started my journey in mindfulness and meditation, and actually took it serious. I cut off all my friends, and the ones that were truly friends are still here with me now, but I cut off everybody. I didn’t resort to s–t like gambling, manipulating women. I didn’t start drinking and smoking weed or getting into drugs. I just stopped everything and I started finding what I truly was as an artist. I thought about not doing this anymore and going back to the railroad to make a career out of it. I was at a crossroads and I let God direct me.
What was your big break?
There’s a couple. I met Remy Banks.
Remy is a friend of the family.
Remy introduced me to Evidence who was going through something personal at the time. He wasn’t in the headspace to rap. He didn’t want to do anything, but he saw my output and linked me with Termanology. So, Term was the first person to put his brand with mine and I did a couple joints on his album Vintage Horns around 2019.
Shortly after that, Westside Gunn reached out for Pray for Paris and we did “Euro Step.” Then came “Michael Irvin” where he rapped, “You ever cook a brick in an air fryer?” And that worked so much, Tyler, the Creator used it. Also, Mach-Hommy’s Pray for Haiti was a really big moment because he put my three records back-to-back-to-back. Those are the type of things that visionaries do and I honestly feel like West saw what I was building towards and put me in position to execute.
Have you and Tyler talked about working together? Because you guys remind me of each other. You both have a natural curiosity, a willingness to learn, and an appreciation of history.
Nah, man. I feel like it’ll be soon, though — because I’ve been working with Domo [Genesis.] We got a lot of incredible things in common, you know, even down to our days of birth. His birthday is on March 6 and mine is on March 5. I also hear from a lot of people there we’re a lot alike, so I’m just curious to see if that’s true or not.
Let’s talk about the tag. How did that come about?
The idea is going back to the 2016 rebranding myself and the internal reform I had, which was a sensitive moment for me. So then in 2018, I’m like, “Man, if n—as can’t see that I’m cold and don’t want to say it, then I’ll say it myself. I’m gonna be obnoxious in a way where I’m repping myself like a graffiti artist.” It’s all purposeful. I wanted to scratch a nerve. A lot of that is me getting to that place where I was just so frustrated and being overlooked. At some point, you take on the underdog role.
Do you walk around saying it randomly? Because I do, especially after playing some of the tracks you’ve produced.
[Laughs.] Yeah, people say that all the time. If somebody calls me, I’ll answer and they’ll be like, “Conductor, we have a problem.”
How did you link with Wiz?
The most exciting record for me this year is the the Wiz Khalifa record with Ty Dolla $ign, “Billionaires.” He texts me, like, “Yo, wait till you see what I did with this.” And I’m like, “You rapping, rapping?” He made that jam. I want people to feel whatever emotion that radiates out.
You still get excited when motherf–kers comes back with some s—t.
Yeah, that’s the best part. How did you find that pocket? Why did you find that pocket? Why did you pick that beat? He was like, “This motherf—ker jam.”
Did you send Wiz a pack?
Nobody gets a nobody a cooked pack. Maybe West. But that’s like I said, that’s always different. Over the winter, I got into Matt Reeves super tough. I started marveling at Matt Reeves and the idea that he had to follow The Dark Knight trilogy. I fell in love with Matt Reeves for that moment and decided to rival that against Bruce Wayne. So, you get tapes like Matt Reeves vs. Bruce Wayne.
And then there’s photos that I found interesting for like color reasons, and then there’s always a note for the artist on why I felt how I felt, so they can see where I was at creatively and then the tape happens. I feel like seeing what another artist is thinking and feeling gives you a moment to collaborate and join them, or find a moment of juxtaposition.
Is there anything that you’re working on this year that we can look forward to?
I think the record with Rome is gonna be another dot on the map, because it’s the entire joint — which we haven’t got much of that for me yet, where I do every song, the arrangement of the track order, how it should feel all the way to the end. We ain’t got that. We just seen me in like little spurts. Now you get to see some dynamic movement all at the same time. Then an instrumental album to drive home.
No matter how far I get or how big the artist is that I work with, I want to keep making those jazz-like records — because honestly, bro, I really feel like that’s where the guy Jay Dee was gonna take it. And I feel a sense of obligation to continue on that path just to see what happens.
Are you planning on doing more full-lengths with rappers?
Maybe three more.
